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Brad DeLong's avatar

I read something like: "The end of the 18th century was... [a] difficult period for the Ottomans, where the Empire was facing multi-thronged issues, including a humiliating defeat against Russia in 1774 and Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt in 1798, as well as serious challenges to the Sultan’s authority coming from local notables all corners of the Empire. There was (yet again) a sense of shock and existential crisis among the political and intellectual elites..."

And I think: Yes, there is often a sense of shock and existential crisis among the political-intellectual élite. But in the 1400s, 1500s, and 1600s the Ottoman Empire quickly squelched uppity local notables, and it were the powers on its borders that had to fear humiliating military defeats as the Ottoman Empire excelled all of its neighbors in its ability to organize resources, mobilize and supply a large well-trained and -disciplined army and navy, and acquire and utilize new military technologies. What is this contrast between the internal and external situation of the Ottoman Empire in the 1500s on the one hand and the 1770-1810 period on the other but what one could correctly call a "relative decline"? Yes, intellectuals paint false and fictional idealized pictures of a glorious ideal past—it is one of the things that they do. But the intellectuals were not wrong in seeing that there were very important and significant things that the Russian Empire of Tsaritsa Ekaterina Velikaya and the First French Republic could do that the Ottoman Empire could not match.

Yours,

Brad DeLong

Vince's avatar

I think this is very interesting, and I think part of the pushback I’ve seen in the comments is because of a difference in how you view the word ‘decline’ from the popular imagination. As Brad and several other point out, the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century is clearly a less capable, more divided state than that of the 16th century. You respond by saying that the 18th century empire had institutional innovations and was much more creative and dynamic than it is given credit for. And that there was nothing ‘inevitable’ about what happened over the next few centuries. That is totally fair, and it is a reasonable, and even necessary pushback. That being said, the point that in the 17th century, the Ottomans nearly took Vienna, while in the early 20th century, the empire didn’t exist anymore, means something, and most people think of that as a ‘decline.’

I think it’s similar in a lot of ways to the revisiting of the ‘fall of the Roman Empire,’ pointing out that there is massive continuity, and not a total collapse and total replacement. That’s very true, and it’s important to point out. But when historians say “the Roman Empire never really fell,” there’s a point at which they’re ignoring the way a layperson would think, which is “the Roman Empire was there, and then it wasn’t. There are ruins we can see. How is that not a fall?” Same thing with the argument about whether the medieval period should be called “the Dark Ages.” I think sometimes historians need to reckon with the fact that the basic, simplistic view of a historical period, while untrue in many ways, and utterly unsophisticated, still expresses truths.

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